But, Anna, I just want you to respond to this. MCEVERS: So we should just say that Grace in the piece said that she gave verbal and non-verbal cues that she didn't want this to happen. But it's - to be exposed this way, I think, is crazy. You know, he did put her hand in his crotch a bunch of times, which is certainly wrong. And for someone who's like the Aziz Ansari in this situation who was putting up zero threatening behavior towards her, she said no exactly one time and his response was, let's put our clothes on. I have zero moralistic comment on that.Īnd then they become terrified to say the thing that we were taught right away - don't kiss me if I don't want to be kissed. But then in this one core area, they're so weak, which is they jump into these, you know, hookup situations. But on the other hand, they told you to keep your mad money and run away if you were in a situation you didn't like, right?įLANAGAN: Well, I mean, when I look at young women - I'm in my 50s - they've accomplished so much that is just - I mean, women my age just sit back in awe, you know? Their goals for careers, the kinds of careers they go into, their fight to be paid equally to men - it's breathtaking. And on the one hand, those magazines, you know, blamed you if you wore too short of a skirt. In your piece, you talked about the magazines - the books and magazines that you read in the '60s and the '70s about what women should do in a situation like this. MCEVERS: And Caitlin, you wrote, you know, about sort of a generational divide when it comes to situations like this. And I did have questions about, should Babe have handled it this way? But ultimately, like, my first thought was this story - this is just so common. So I thought, like, yep, this feels real familiar. This is - the behavior she describes through Ansari is behavior that I've heard men confess to in their own lives. This is a situation that I've heard from my friends. NORTH: I mean, honestly, my first reaction was just sort of recognition. MCEVERS: And, Anna, what about you? What'd you think? And I thought, that's a terrible thing to do to somebody. But it was so far away from any journalistic standard. I think he did some things that, you know, if I was supposed to be the person in charge of approving or disapproving of what he did, I think there were some things he did that weren't nice. And I just want to ask you both - and we'll start with Caitlin - what was your first reaction when you read this story?įLANAGAN: I was really surprised that this piece had named this man, kept the accuser's name secret and then had really detailed a lot of actions that I didn't think at all qualified as sexual assault by almost any level. She eventually says she's going to call a car. She says she would try to move away from him and used, quote, "verbal and non-verbal cues" to show she was uncomfortable with the situation. MCEVERS: OK, just to set up this story a little bit more, Grace says that things got physical at Aziz Ansari's apartment after dinner. MCEVERS: And Caitlin Flanagan is a writer and contributing editor at The Atlantic. Welcome to the show.ĪNNA NORTH: Thanks so much for having me. She's a senior reporter who covers gender issues at Vox. And clearly we're going to be touching on some mature themes, so this conversation might not be suitable for all listeners.Īnna North is with us. Did she experience sexual assault as she said, or was it just a bad date? We're going to hear from two women with different views. Grace describes what she says was the worst night of her life. Grace and Ansari met at a party last year. He was wearing a pin to support the movement against sexual harassment and assault. Grace says she decided to tell her story after she saw Aziz Ansari win an award at last week's Golden Globes. The website Babe published her account of that date and said it protected her identity because she's not a public figure. People are talking a lot about what happened after a dinner date between the comedian Aziz Ansari and a young woman going by the name of Grace.
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